Grafting - plum (forum)

Saf starts with ...
I have been reading about grafting techniques lately and am very interested in trying. Actually my interest in grafting grew from a need - last year I bought a Narrabwen plum without realising that I need a another variety of plum as a cross

Time: 23rd July 2012 1:45pm

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About the Author Saf
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Itdepends says...
Personally I'd go with Mariposa or Satsuma as they are blood plums and taste better (to me) than Santa Rosa. If you can get cuttings- graft both varieties.

Time: 23rd July 2012 8:20pm

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peter 1000 says...
hi saf,
if you decide on mariposa and cant get
any i can send you some scion
from mine as well as donsworth if
you like.

Time: 23rd July 2012 9:07pm

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Original Post was last edited: 23rd July 2012 9:35pm
About the Author peter 1000
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Saf says...
Hi Peter 1000,
Thanks for the offer - very kind of you. Yes I would love some scion wood. Since you are in Adelaide (and I am in Sydney) not sure if sending via mail would be alright. I am happy to pay (or at least for the postage). Please email me your address and I can send through a prepaid postage satchel and my address. My email is "2145(at)exemail(dot)com(dot)au".

Time: 31st July 2012 10:54am

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peter 1000 says...
ok. email sent

Time: 31st July 2012 2:29pm

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Boris Spasky says...
Personally Narrabeen is a good pollinator for Mariposa, not the other way around. Agree Itdepends, Santa Rosa is a good universal pollinator but ordinary eating.

Time: 31st July 2012 11:00pm

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CH says...
I am looking at buying a dwarf Mariposa plum and would like to attempt to graft or bud a cutting of dwarf Satsuma onto the same rootstock to enable it to cross pollinate.

Does anyone have any advice on doing this, is it a good idea?

If so what is the best method to use to attach the Satsuma onto the Mariposa rootstock but on the opposite side to the Mariposa branch? If I attempt this will it damage the Mariposa?

Also, what is the best time of year to do it?

Thanks.
C

Time: 3rd July 2014 8:19pm

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About the Author CH
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Markmelb says...
The rootstock causes the dwarfing - attach any of those scions to a low branch - I have a plumcot with 7 different - just use a whip and tongue graft on a lowish branch - find a tree first that suits this to make it easy - maybe go to a grafting day and practice on some prunings till your happy with join - good luck :)

Time: 3rd July 2014 9:28pm

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BenW says...
A plastic bag carefully placed over the scion after you have grafted it is good for plums. Leave it a couple of weeks, then take it off (carefully), even if you aren't sure whether the graft has taken. The extra humidity helps but too long and you'll promote rot :)

Time: 3rd July 2014 10:15pm

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CH says...
Thanks for the advice guys.

I am not sure if the whip and tongue graft is the best method as I was wanting to graft it onto the rootstock in a different place so that I can distinguish between the different varieties. Is there another way to do this - is it a good idea?

Also when is the best time of the year to do it, is it something I need to start in the next few weeks or is it best to wait until Spring or Summer?

Time: 7th July 2014 5:50pm

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Jason says...
Plums are super easy to graft, so long as its all lined up any cut will work. Don't think I've ever had one fail and I don't try hard with stone fruits. You should be grafting plums just about right now.

They say apples are the easiest to graft but plums must be right there with them.

Time: 8th July 2014 2:46am

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BenW says...
CH, do you have you rootstock / Mariposa already?

If not, choose one with 3 or 4 well spaced branches. Make sure it has good crotch angles and that the branches originate for the trunk a little ways apart (definitely not in a Y shape). This will give you a strong framework and reduce the risk of broken branches and disease in the long run.

This will be easy to grow in an open vase and you can replace one or two of the branches with other varieties, by cutting the branches quite short and grafting on. Cutting them short will make your tree easy to manage as you will know which variety is where, without new shoots mucking things up. Whip and tongue is perfect.

If it is a maiden tree (single stem) I would cut it back a bit (to where it is at least pencil thickness) and graft on top. New branches will grow from beneath your graft and will be the trees original variety, while those from your graft will be the new variety.

One think I would definitely not do is side wedge graft. I've seen this done to add multiple varieties to a rootstock in 1 year, however the arising branches will never be strong and will almost certainly break in a few years. This technique is meant for a single graft, and once that graft has taken you would cut everything above it off.

If you're not sure, I recommend you attend either the Heritage fruits society grafting day at Pettys Orchard in Templestowe or the Werribbee park heritage orchard grafting day. Both are coming up in the next month or so.

I'll be at the Petty's orchard one, as I have helped with the grafting there the past couple of years.

They won't have dwarf rootstock, as they are new and hard to get,get some tips (a photo of your tree will help, if you don't want to bring it along) and a wide variety of scion - 100+ varieties if you are lucky, but definitely more than you'll find elsewhere.

Time: 8th July 2014 7:48pm

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srt says...
Excellent summary. You are clearly knowledgeable.

Time: 9th July 2014 1:39pm

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CH says...
Thanks Jason and BenW.

BenW thanks for taking the time to give such a detailed response- no, I haven

Time: 9th July 2014 3:45pm

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BenW says...
Hi CH

The problem isn't with the combination you want - plums are pretty forgiving. You shouldn't graft a European plum onto a Japanese, but you can go the other way. That's about it. (the ones you mention are all Japanese).

The problem I was talking about relates to side wedge grafting, which is a method sometimes used to add a number of varieties in one go. I pulled an image from the web.

See how upright the graft is, and how close to the main stem? That join will never heal strongly and will probably break when it gets heavy with fruit. It would be OK if you cut off the main stem once the graft took, but that defeats the purpose :)

The best thing to do is find a tree with branches in the right spots for an open vase: 3-5 branches spaced around the tree, vertically separated on the trunk, with good angles from the trunk. Google open vase to get some images.

Even if your tree isn't perfect, new branches you can use will probably grow and you can graft onto them next year.

Petty's probably won't have dwarf rootstock for plums. These are a very new release, not widely available, except for those Plantnet tagged dwarf stone fruit trees that have appeared the last couple of years, so if you really want a dwarf, you will need to buy one of those. I'm pretty sure I saw some in Bunnings the other day.

I keep my full size plums to 2 ish meters tall with summer pruning, and they will be hardier than dwarfs. You need to commit to diligent pruning though.

I'm not sure what the current prices at Petty's are. Scion is usually 2 or 3 dollars a piece, and a couple more if you want someone to do the graft for you. Rootstock maybe $10, but these would be much better suited for a single graft.

I help out there from time to time but I try to avoid having much to do with the administrative side of things, so if you want to know for sure, email them :)


Pictures - Click to enlarge

Picture: 1

Time: 10th July 2014 12:36am

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About the Author BenW
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CH says...
Thanks for the clarification Ben, by the sounds of it sacrificing 1 branch on the plum for a whip and tongue graft is the way to go, especially if it is the best way to ensure I get any plums at all!

The Plantnet varieties are the ones I have seen and am going to get

Time: 10th July 2014 3:05pm

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BenW says...
No worries CH, glad it made sense :)

45-60 degrees is about right for your scaffold branches. You can tie branches down(or up) to a good angle while they are young. If you can easily bend the branch to the right angle, it's fine. If it looks or feels like it is putting stress where it joins the trunk when you do it, don't count that as a scaffold branch as you really should cut it off.

I have reused a picture of a peach I posted a week or so ago. It's a bit hard to see, but the angles at the trunk are good and they are nicely spaced branches. The branches are a bit upright, but can easily be tied down to good angles.

Just choose the best tree you can find. Most problems can be fixed if you do it while the tree is young. To be honest, you could choose the worst tree there, bung it in the ground and never prune or care for it and it would probably still fruit just fine. By taking care at this stage though, your tree will be easier to manage, with less chance of disease, split branches, ect.
Pictures - Click to enlarge

Picture: 1

Time: 11th July 2014 1:11pm

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About the Author BenW
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CH says...
Thanks again Ben. They all looked the same so I doubted that there would be a problem with all of them.

If I may bother you with a couple more questions, I am looking at buying the plum over the next few days but it will be bare-rooted so will need potting.
How long will it need before I can attempt to graft a Satsuma cutting onto it? If I attempt it in a month (say at the grafting day) will it take or because the tree is still establishing itself will it struggle?

If I am also able to get a cutting of the Satsuma in the next few days how long will it survive by itself before it needs to be grafted on or dies?

Time: 11th July 2014 5:36pm

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BenW says...
Hey CH

I've always be told to graft plums a little later, in August (for Victoria)when the sap is starting to run. It would probably be fine now as well. It is actually OK if the rootstock isn't 100% dormant, so long as the scion (your cutting)is.

If you need to store scion, put it in an airtight ziplock bag in the fridge with a little damp sphagnum or wrapped in damp newspaper - just damp, not sopping. It will keep that way for months.

Personally, I would plant my tree now - the less time it is barerooted the better. If you aren't 100% confident on the grafting part, store your scion for now and there will be demos at the grafting day which might help. Grafting satsuma on now and then adding another variety after the grafting day would also work just fine I would think.

My suggestion - read about the techniques, preferably watch a video or 2 on youtube, then practice grafting bits of prunings together until you get nice joins. I do this every year before I try any real grafts :)

Time: 11th July 2014 10:58pm

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For eddy says...
My understanding is that it is preferred if the rootstock is NOT dormant.

Time: 12th July 2014 1:20pm

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BenW says...
I must admit, I usually wait till at least late July.

Given that there are grafting days in my area from next weekend, I'm still pretty sure it would be OK :)

Time: 12th July 2014 5:26pm

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CH says...
Thanks for all your help BenW.
Yesterday I bought the barerooted Mariposa and potted it. How long do you think it needs to settle in the pot before I can attempt to graft a scion onto it?

Time: 13th July 2014 9:42pm

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Markmelb says...
LOL - anytime between now and end of august - potting doesnt matter as long as roots are moist or heeled into ground - i did a couple for a friend yesterday on a dwarf satsuma in a pot.
Mariposa and a cotton candy just for fun :)

Time: 13th July 2014 10:47pm

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BenW says...
Where did you get your CotNCandy Mark?

I have looked for some of the Flemings interspecifics but so far only found a Pluot and Plumcot.

They are rubbish from the shops but what stonefruit isn't? Worth a try in my book.

I wouldn't mind trying some of the others, where the bulk of the genetics is from apricots or peaches.





Time: 15th July 2014 3:48pm

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CH says...
BenW, is the grafting day on tomorrow? I have tried accessing Petty's website to check the day but the website is currently down. Will the rain cause the day to be called off?

I was thinking about bringing my Mariposa and scions with me so someone can help me with the graft but now that it is potted I don't think it will fit in my car!

Time: 2nd August 2014 12:21pm

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BenW says...
Should be on CH. It's winter. In Melbourne. Rain isn't exactly unheard of ;)If not many people turn up, they might finish up early though.

Attached is a flyer I had emailed to me:
http://www.heritagefruitssociety.org.au/Resources/Pictures/HFS%20Grafting%20Days%20poster%202014.jpg

You will definitely be able to get a demo I would say.

I don't think I'm on grafting duty this year but I'll probably still be around pruning or cutting scion or something.

You said earlier you are only a few minutes away? If you aren't confident after tomorrow, I could drop by after the next Petty's work day in two weeks. I really do encourage you to have a go yourself though. Even a noob should get 80% success with plums (95% with apples or pears):D

If it fails it doesn't matter really - You will get another chance next year anyway.

Time: 2nd August 2014 1:52pm

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CH says...
Excellent. I will see you tomorrow, BenW.

Time: 2nd August 2014 7:34pm

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CH says...
Thanks again for all your help yesterday Ben, it was great to put a face to the name.

I practised the grafting on the branches you gave me but am having trouble getting a clean straight cut the first time - I believe it may be due to not having a proper grafting knife. I went to Bunnings to get one but they didn't have any - is there a place you know of that sell them or are they an online job?

Also can you remember what the name of the blood plum cutting the flannel shirt guy recommended was? Was it Brown's blood?

Time: 4th August 2014 2:34pm

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BenW says...
Hi Chris

Just glad to see someone younger than me interested in fruit trees :D

If you are having trouble getting a nice cut, that seems likely. Either that, or your angle is a bit off (if you make the cut more than say 2cm, you get a wavy cut), or you are putting the tongue cut in the wrong position perhaps?

I got one at the Seymour field days about 5 years ago, and another at a budding day, I don't actually know where to buy one off the shelf.

Online might be the way to go. These look Ok to me
http://www.forestrytools.com.au/index.php?id=405
http://www.forestrytools.com.au/index.php?id=404

Good luck :)

And yes, it was browns blood. Got a piece of that one myself...

Time: 4th August 2014 10:54pm

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Markmelb says...
Hi CH -

I got my 405 from BAAG - Ive reshaped it into a true triangle and polished it and shaves hair now -- see link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jav_AQjgQrQ

Time: 5th August 2014 8:15am

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CH says...
Cheers Ben, I will keep practising because it might have been because the angle was off, it definitely had that wavy look to it. I

Time: 7th August 2014 3:53pm

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BenW says...
They come 'blunt' Chris - I had forgotten the one I had with me was new :)

You will do better if you sharpen it before use, like Mark has. If you are really serious, you use a leather strap and sharpen it like a cutthroat razor at regular intervals as you work.

So long as you keep it reasonably sharp, you'll be right :)

Time: 7th August 2014 4:34pm

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Markmelb says...
CH - the Video link above explains the triangle blade shape - flat on bottom and blade goes from thick at rear to nothing at edge so no 45deg edge or whatever like a knife - i think i used 400 wet and dry wet and down to 100 then polished with leather as he explains and then fibreglass polish compound and the leather strap I made - totally different technique to a knife :)

Time: 7th August 2014 9:20pm

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For eddy says...
Reasonably sharp is enough. Most effort should be on selection of scion and timing . Aftercare is v. important ; the carpentry not so much.

Time: 9th August 2014 12:43am

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CH says...
Thanks heaps guys for helping out, I can't believe how willing you all are to share your knowledge like this - it's awesome and very much appreciated.

Mark I hadn't had the chance to check out the video properly but now I understand what you are talking about - thanks for the explanation.

I've decided to just give it a go and hope for the best, if it doesn't work I'll try again next year. Fingers crossed!

Time: 9th August 2014 10:39am

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Markmelb says...
The Cotton Candy plum/apricot i grew on my Plumcot were quite amazing - I fully recommend this CV - not only doe leaves and red branches look good fruit is very nice and posses didnt get any - but they got my dwarf peaches - buggers

Time: 6th January 2015 10:11pm

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BlackThumbed says...
Hi everyone!

So, at the moment I have a semi-dormant peachcot tree that i'd love to graft some blood plums onto.

Firstly, would this combination even work? I know that most stone fruits can be inter-grafted, but i've never really heard of this combination before (peachcot or nectarine base, plum top)

Also, I have one of those 'grafting tools' (image attached) that i've used to try and graft in the past. Could I still use it for this?

Finally, would anyone be generous enough to provide some scionwood of the Santa Rosa, Mariposa, Satsuma or Cot-n-candy cultivar? I would offer some of my peach, nectarine or peachcot scionwood but unfortunately the weather in Melbourne has been unusually warm and all my trees have already flowered and leafed out!

Thank you all so much and if you have any more grafting tips please enlighten me haha.

BlackThumbed

Time: 13th August 2018 1:25pm

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