Allopathic action of gum trees (forum)

ringelstrumpf starts with ...
Our neighbour has a huge gum tree right at the fence. It is maybe a Sydney peppermint, but I can't tell for sure ( I can't pick leaves). While it is a beautiful tree I fear a bit that it grows even bigger, because this site is a sheltered spot where I could grow fruit trees which might be a bit marginal in our area.
However, I saw people having veggie gardens under gum trees and some of these even looked healthy. That's strange.
Maybe not all of the gum trees are antagonists? Or to a lesser extend in cool climate?

Time: 5th January 2011 3:11pm

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About the Author ringelstrumpf1
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Brad says...
maybe they've built in a root barrier? thats a bigger factor as far as I've seen allopathy is over-claimed

I should add my experience is limited to WA, so there could well be regional differences

Time: 5th January 2011 7:01pm

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Original Post was last edited: 5th January 2011 7:02pm

About the Author Brad2
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Julie says...
My concern, from my own experience, is the invading roots. Maybe this particular tree has a deep tap root and won't be such a problem?

Time: 5th January 2011 7:22pm

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About the Author Julie
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ringelstrumpf says...
It is said that they (the roots the leaves?) produce some allopahtic substance that is adversial to the growth of other plants. The garden I mentioned is at a creek bank and it is raised garden beds.
I myself don't want to create a veggie garden there, but it would be a good spot for fruit trees. Usually the roots reach further than the crown.

Time: 5th January 2011 8:39pm

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chris says...
Agree with Julie. The roots are more of an issue...they've pretty aggressive and they'll suck the moisture out of your soil. New fruit trees will struggle to establish without clearing a good radius around the tree and putting in some sort of root barrier.

Time: 5th January 2011 11:00pm

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About the Author Chris
sydney
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J says...
This is an interesting topic. My backyard has 3 big gum trees and I've planted a quite a few fruit trees around them. Tree's that aren't quite important to me, I plant closer and the tree's I really want succeeding I plant further away from the gums. I was concerned about the effects of the gums, but I've seen Citrus on other properties surrounded by Gums and covered with shade producing crops so I'm wondering whats going on there.

Do gum roots end up killing tree's near them or do they just set back progress by sucking all the moisture out of the area? Can this be avoided by good amounts of water for the trees near the gums?

Time: 6th January 2011 8:58am

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About the Author J
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ringelstrumpf says...
J that's interesting. Maybe citrus is not so much affected? In the wild gum trees are surrounded by other plant which can cope with them. Maybe there are domesticated fruits and nuts which can cope with them too? Maybe it depends on the variety of gum?

Time: 6th January 2011 2:40pm

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About the Author ringelstrumpf1
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J says...
The dandenongs have all sorts of Gums and up near monbulk I have seen Citrus (lemon and orange usually) surrounded by gums with not much direct sunlight filled with fruit.

So my question is, if I provide enough water to my fruit trees, will that counter act the effects of the near by gums?

Time: 6th January 2011 3:23pm

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About the Author J
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Charles cant spell says...
Cooch and buffaloo and other grasses set out groth inhibitors to stop seedlings getting established and shading out hte grass. I have heard thst is one of the reasons for expanding grasslands. Anyway what I was meaning is that even though things may be allopathic you should still be able to grow under and near most of them. I do know from personal experience that our Huge Walnut tree on the farm killed off everything uner it even grass due to dense shade and possibley allopathic buildup. Once it dies or a canopy space opens it will be interesting to see if we can grow fruit trees etc under there. There was a large Ginseng crop in polystyrene crates, but that never did well. I can say it doesnt inhibit baby walnuts becuse in and between the disused ginseng crates there are hundreds baby walnuts growing.

Anyway I know a text I have has plants and guilds that and meant to be uneffected by the alleopathy of each species but its a food forrest book so it wont cover gums. I would say its more a competition issue aswell. So if you do try cut a big deep wide hole much larger than the fruit tree to give it some protection from surface feeder root invasion. Even though the trees are huge these surface feeder roots are still shallow so if you take them out then cut around again each year for a few years or even maintain a root barrier or trench and feed the new plants well I recon you should be fine.

Food forrests and permanent forrest often rely totally on the nutrient recycle, deep and shallow water and nutrient mining of many closely growing varying height species. These frequently exisit in terrible soil hecne where the rainforrest are cut down and the farmer use up the 10cm of topsoil its gutless nad usless for even crops. Anyway some plant preffer the company of others i.e. a guild but I think its more about nutrients, different nutrients and different times of year, free mulch and leaflitter between the species and a working ecosystem.

We have been trying to replace these ecosystems and complex nutrient relationships with fertilisers for years so I recon a little thought and care and your fruit trees will be happier than if they where planted out by themselves, because lets face it in the natural habitiats fruit trees dont grow out in the open in a padock they grow under large open canopy's, plenty of competition there !

And my rant is over :)

Time: 7th January 2011 1:38am

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Original Post was last edited: 7th January 2011 1:46am

About the Author Charlesstillcantspell1
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ringelstrumpf says...
Charles, I saw something in the net it was a walnut guild but I don't remember what trees/plants it contained.
It might be worth a try. I have two figs to plant and they like root restriction. If I would dig a hole an drop some stones, bit and small ones in the hole it might work I even could line the sides with stones. Maybe it's simply try and error with some not so expensive plants.
This is mainly a suburban problem, outside they either leave the tree alone or cut it down for an orchard.
Commercial orchards wouldn't work around gum trees, this is why so little information is available.
BTW, did you refer to the book "edible forest gardens"? I didn't buy it so far because of the price and I didn't have the opportunity to look in it.


Time: 7th January 2011 1:31pm

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About the Author ringelstrumpf1
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Julie says...
I live in an orchard area, and the growers usually deep rip around the gum trees every couple of years I'm told.

Time: 7th January 2011 6:46pm

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About the Author Julie
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Charles cant spell says...
Yup Ringel " thats the books 2 volumes" not cheap but for anyone interested in food forrests there is no real alternative reference wise, to my knowledge.

Time: 7th January 2011 10:57pm

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About the Author Charlesstillcantspell1
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BJ says...
Superbook deals has volumes one and two of "edible forest gardens" for about $100 AUD (including postage) ... http://www.superbookdeals.com/cgi-bin/moreinfo.cgi?item=2578810&bisac=

(I use booko as a web-site to find out where things are cheapest - it can result in a significant saving compared to what you might find elsewhere).

Time: 8th January 2011 1:02am

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About the Author BJ11
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Brad says...
careful BJ what comes up for me on that link is only volume one not both

including postage volume 1 $81
volume 2 $75
from
http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/search?searchTerm=+%22edible+forest+gardens%22&search=search


Time: 8th January 2011 1:33am

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About the Author Brad2
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BJ says...
Interesting Brad ...
When I go through booko http://www.booko.com.au/books/isbn/9781890132606) it comes up with the two volumes for $89.18 plus $9.06 from Super Book Deals. (With the book depository UK as $162.97). Maybe I'm having one of "those" days and not looking at the correct item - or I'm fumbling incorrectly around the internet ... but booko is usually pretty good at identifying the cheapest place to get something. If I'm wrong I'm very sorry - but it does indicate quite a few places that have the combination for less than $160 (including postage).
I'm always keen to reduce the cost of books!

Time: 8th January 2011 4:32pm

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Charles cant spell says...
IF you locals want to take a look at mine before you go forking out hte dosh feel free to ask I can give you a look or short term loan wink wink nudge nudge....loose it and I will be back for your first borne though:)

Time: 8th January 2011 10:48pm

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allybanana says...
Is it possible to make the eucalypt work for you by growing native parasitic edible plants on it?

These include both fruit trees and orchids with edible roots that parasitise the eucalypts symbiotic fungi http://www.mq.edu.au/arboretum/MQ_Botanical_Vampires_Walk.pdf With its deep roots and large canopy I have no doubt the tree it is very efficiently utilising the environment even in dry times and perhaps this can be used to your advantage.

Locally near Eden the Rosy Hyacinth Orchid Dipodium roseum http://www.ourshopfront.com/kabi/html/Natives/Dipodium%20roseum.php has great underground edible tubers it grows in the understorey of dry eucalypt forest it has no leaves just parasitises, so shading shouldn

Time: 10th January 2011 6:29pm

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About the Author allybanana
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amanda says...
Good idea allybanana - but (at the risk of criticsm here..) I haven't honestly tasted any native Aust. bush food that I would be really keen on growing? (and that which I might consider is tropical..)?

Ringelstrumpf - there is evidence that some Aust natives also act to actually make the soil around them water repellent - thereby inhibiting the growth of competitors...but the size of the gum trees may also be a factor here - I have small-ish natives that are no problem - and then there are some big ones (bit like a blue gum) and even the invasive fountain grass weed doesn't grow under them.

Time: 11th January 2011 12:18am

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About the Author amanda19
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