Mystery Guava (forum)
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Mike starts with ...
I have a question on guavas.I grow mexican,thai white,hawaiin, yellow cherry and my prize specimen is another species I can't identify.The prolific year round fruit go light yellow and are as big as a golf ball Flesh is yellow, with very small soft seeds in a soft centre and it has much less acid than a yellow cherry and tastes way better with pineapple and lemon overtones.Even green the centre is sweet.The foliage is stiff and hairy with rounded leaves.It is the guava of choice for the wildlife and right now the fig parrots are partying in the tree.I have no picture as my cameras are touring SE Asia.
Time: 14th June 2011 4:52pm
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Wayne says...
No pictures? what a bummer
Time: 14th June 2011 5:08pm
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Mike says...
It is a bit lame without pictures but I just went out and had a look again and ate some before dark.They are bunched in groups of up to 50 fruit and some ripe ones are smaller only the size of cherry guavas.One fruit person told me it is a pineapple guava but not a feijoa although the leaves are more like them than the 2 common guava species.It should be really popular.When I got the cutting I was told it is a lemon guava.Old leaves actually go smooth and young ones are hirsute and it is more like the tropical guava in form but smaller with rounded leaves.
Time: 14th June 2011 5:25pm
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Peter says...
Inflorescenses are stable for species level -therefore when you say they are 50 fruits arranged in bunches it can't be guava, feijoa or cherry guavas. It most be something else...
Time: 14th June 2011 9:27pm
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Mike says...
Not real bunches arranged but touching each other in loose aggregations like where cherry guavas can have 6 or 7 fruit together.It is a Psidium alright just not P.guajava,guineense or the 2 cattleys and not the sour species starting with s. or para guava or fejoia.
I just thought the bells would ring and someone would just know it.
Time: 14th June 2011 9:41pm
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Mike says...
Flowers are closer together than other guavas and side shoots are closer and more regular so it gives the appearance of bunches.
Time: 14th June 2011 9:45pm
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Peter says...
Psidium is listed with 100 species in Mabberley and Kunkel's 'Plants for human consumption' lists about 37 Psidium species with edible fruit, but it is only a list without descriptions, so another book is needed or faster, someone who grows or know the plant sees this post...
Time: 14th June 2011 10:07pm
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Mike says...
It isn't listed amongst the good eating ones I have seen reveiwed.It is certainly the heaviest cropper I suppose it could be just another form of cherry guava with different foliage and better fruit but the calyx is also thinner and drier even on young fruit but the flowers look like cherry guavas.I need to photo it.I think it is the finest type of guava I have seen.
Time: 14th June 2011 10:23pm
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Peter says...
Yes please take pictures. I do not know from Yellow Cherry Guavas that young leaves are hairy, but I have never actually looked with a magnifier to see, if there are a few hairs present in the ordinary yellow cherry guava and your form might just have more.
At present I am back thinking it is a special form of Yellow Cherry Guava, especially you know the references about other Psidiums being rated less then 'good eating' - unlikely it would be one of them.
Still, it would be great to see a pic of a fruiting branch, flowers, young and adult leaves...
Time: 14th June 2011 10:42pm
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Mike says...
I have a yellow cherry guava with smooth leaves that are more pliable,smoother fruit,whiter flesh and bigger seeds and it is more acidic. Cherry guavas are like the poor cousins of this one.I must take a picture while fruit are still clustered and stop talking about it.
Time: 14th June 2011 10:49pm
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Peter says...
Even the YCG is suppose to be 'true from seed', from only two trees in my yard experience - I chopped one down due to bad taste (I am not fussy - real bad) and the other one sounds like your one - very good taste, sweet not acidic less, however less complex than the red cherry guava. Looks like they are more capable of mixing genes than the literature is aware of. I would not wonder, if the seeds of your tree display different features. The person giving you this 'lemon guava' knew why he gave you a cutting, not a seedling!
Time: 14th June 2011 10:57pm
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Mike says...
I have eaten lots of yellow and red cherries and the neighbour has a good red cherry.The mystery guava is outside that variation and less complex because of lower acid but tastes better and is soft,sweet and yellow inside even when quite green.I just went outside and had a look and the fruit moths fly past the cherry guava to get at this.It doesn't look like a cross with the big guava.The leaves are a bit like feijoa.Gotta take a picture but my cameras are in Thailand.
Time: 14th June 2011 11:06pm
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Peter says...
I will keep looking. Ruled out a guava morphologically similar to YCG: P. buxifolium from Florida - Has purple fruit.
Maybe it is a hybrid? No idea, if Psidiums hybridise... I only came across literature which talks about grafting P. guava onto Red Cherry guava to achieve higher yields.
Time: 14th June 2011 11:18pm
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Mike says...
I'll borrow a camera.The aroma of ripe fruit is like the cherry guava and pineapple.I could almost fill a bucket with fruit from the 2;5m high 3m wide tree.Fig parrots make a mess and leave aromatic slurry under the tree.If you let fruit go fuuly yellow they are marshmallow soft and the seeds are flattened and under 3mm long.Maybe my thai white would have as much in weight infruit when it is laden but it doesn;t get so festooned and not repeatedly.
Time: 14th June 2011 11:51pm
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Peter says...
Soft seeds, hirsute leaves...
Genera: Campomanesia ??? (C. adamantium maybe - todafruta.blogspot.com) maybe?
But then the calyx lobes have to be already separated in bud stage, not fused and then bursting apart like in Psidium).
Just in case, we should be open to other generas.
Time: 14th June 2011 11:54pm
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Mike says...
The 5 calyx lobes are separated in flowers and roll back over fruit unlike the cherry guava.They don't seem to burst apart are way less fleshy and go brown and dry.As the fruit grows the calyx becomes raised but not like in other guavas.The seeds are more like chili seeds.
Maybe it is another genus.
Time: 15th June 2011 12:28am
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Mike says...
I just googled it and C.cambessedeana looks similar but the stalks are too long and seeds are too big.C.adamantium has soft pointy leaves and other things not right but closer than cherry guava.
Time: 15th June 2011 12:43am
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Peter says...
There are about 40 species of Campomanesia and two distinguishing features from the closely related Psidium are the seed morphology and the calyx. As described by you it points exactly to Campomanesia. There is an identification key of Myrtaceae in Engler and Prantl which I used yesterday, an until now unreached precise description of the whole plant kingdom going to genera level plus picking some of the more important species with further details(also deals with algae, funghi,...) from the 19th and early 20th century. You can find parts of it as a free internet archive, but only in German. However, when crucial it might be worth the effort to translate the important bits you need/the drawings are absulutely great!!
Time: 15th June 2011 10:27am
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Mike says...
Borrowed the camera, got the pix and I am having truoble uploading them.I don't think they are guavas but will put the cherry guavas out of the backyard business if they have to 'face off'.I'll try to figure it out later tonight.
Time: 15th June 2011 6:11pm
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Mike says...
Peter I seem to be able to e-mail the shots to people but not upload them to this website unfortunately.I can almost pick up the fig parrots on the tree gorging themselves.
Time: 16th June 2011 5:24pm
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John Mc says...
Mike, try compressing the pic to under say 500kb.
Most cameras take pics in large Mb's and are too large to upload.
Time: 16th June 2011 6:02pm
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Peter says...
No worries, so far it worked ok without pictures.
Mike, can you have a look at the secondaty veins on mature leaves?
At the merge point with the midrib(or vein) are they in equal distance to each other from leaf base to tip
or
Are they closer together towards the base of the leaf?
(I should draw, take a pic and upload if unclear).
I found a few more other morphological characteristics in another book and something about the smell, but need to get hold off the book again.
Time: 16th June 2011 6:07pm
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Mike says...
I did that and tried all else and can't figure it out.I even sent shots to infodaleys and asked them to upload it for me. I was keen to find out what this puzzling non-guava is.
Time: 16th June 2011 6:09pm
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Wayne says...
Me to
Time: 16th June 2011 6:13pm
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John Mc says...
Wanna send it to me and I'll have a go?
coastalskylightatbigpondcom
Time: 16th June 2011 6:13pm
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Wayne says...
Opps!!
Time: 16th June 2011 6:37pm
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Mike says...
Did they arrive John?
Time: 16th June 2011 6:42pm
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John Mc says...
no Mike try again. There's no 's' after coastalskylight
@bigpond.com
Sorry I'm being a bit cryptic just trying to throw the 'bots off.
Time: 16th June 2011 6:54pm
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Mike says...
Maybe it is too cryptic for me but if you send an email to me at vnatapan@y7mail.com I will throw a few off your tail and allow me to reply.Thanks John.
Time: 16th June 2011 7:11pm
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John Mc says...
email sent Mike.
Time: 16th June 2011 7:47pm
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Mike says...
I had the right address and had reduced their size but they aren't going through so it is me or the computer.I can do it from work tomorrow as I sent e-mailed them to a couple of people but can't visit sites.It is a pain in the neck John thanks for your assistance.
Time: 16th June 2011 7:49pm
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Peter says...
Mike,
do you still have the fruit? When you cut through with a crosssection - are there 3 to 4 locules (seed chambers) or 5-8?
About the smell: The book says, Campomanesia has a pine-like smell.
Would be good to check the veins (see post above)
Time: 16th June 2011 8:08pm
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Mike says...
It is frustrating as I have the photos and can't e-mail or upload them.Locules are indistinct and appear to be 4-6 and the aroma is a pine like with lemon and pineapple as well.
Secondary veins are irregularly spaced and loosely alternate with either side being quite different.I've eaten dozens this evening.I looked at the campomanesia species and none had the tiny seeds,prolific fruiting habit, stiff feijoia like foliage,hirsuteness or fruit as sweet.There is a similarity however.I'll get pix of this remarkable species uploaded with some assistance on the weekend.It will no doubt all become obvious then.
Time: 16th June 2011 9:01pm
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amanda says...
Mike - try selecting your photo and hit email (make sure your email account is open in the background) when the email pops up with the photo file - right click on it - and hit Save as - then save it into a new folder. Close it all up and then when u hit Browse (on your forum post) - go into that new folder and select the copy you have just saved....it will be the right 'size'.
You seem like a smart guy so I am certain this will work for you :)
Time: 16th June 2011 9:41pm
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Peter says...
Good thing about plants is that they do not run away. It sounds like a weekend job for me as well working through the different identification keys, however absolutely worthwhile. I skipped a bit within the main ID key I am looking at, but having more time and sooner or later photos, I will go from the beginning of the family, just to make sure it is not a different genera all together.
I always knew that this group of Myrtaceae with fleshy berries will bring more nice surprises than "just" the nice common guava.
Time: 16th June 2011 9:58pm
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Mike says...
I lost the battle with my computer but I'll get the pictures up in the next couple of days.Amanda was wrong on two counts.It must be less tropical than the big guava and I never water it.The kids next door won't touch their red cherry guava but they're always checking this one for fruit.
Time: 16th June 2011 11:13pm
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amanda says...
Really Mike? what two counts? the method was passed onto me by Forum members here - it's a little time consuming but has never failed me yet? If you have cameras 'touring Asia" I took it for granted that you may be up to speed on uploading? Plenty of old folk/pensoners doing it her after all.. :)
Let us know anyway - we can always talk u thru it.
Time: 17th June 2011 1:27am
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John Mc says...
Here's the pics on Mike's behalf.
Pictures - Click to enlarge
Picture: 1 
Picture: 2
Time: 17th June 2011 4:08pm
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Mike says...
Thanks John someone will recognise the nonguavas now.I see you have about 20 species or varieties in common with me and maybe 10 that I had before but removed.I have not listed my trees yet but i have about 80 trees,60 varieties and 40 species.35 trees of 25 species have been removed/replaced in the last 10 years.I prune savagely and only durian was allowed to exceed 2.5m (carambola only 1m) and they snapped off because of it.
I am not the Fabian of Mikes from Limberlost.
Time: 17th June 2011 4:29pm
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Mike says...
There is not bunches of 50 guavas in the picture because the wildlife have taken so many ripening ones.The single fruit is green but already moist inside.
Time: 17th June 2011 4:33pm
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BJ says...
Guisaro? P. guineense
Do the fruit fly get in alot?
Is the skin firm like a sort of shell?
Time: 17th June 2011 4:55pm
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fruitist says...
The leaves look like Guisaro. I have a tree not bearing yet so can't tell the what the seeds look like. Some Campomenesia have chilli like seeds.
Time: 17th June 2011 5:41pm
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Peter says...
Ok., I agree it's back to Psidium, not Campomanesia because of the following:
1) seeds too many for C. (rarely over 4)
2) seeds not thin enough
Now getting into the Psidium key after Engler/Prantl:
First it is divided in 3 main groups in the way the calyx behaves:
1) Calyx lobes already apart in adult flower bud
2) Calyx lobes still fused in adult bud
3) Calyx ruptures open in a ring-like fashion, so the fused lobes come off together as a "hat"
= I choose group one as the mystery guava has already clearly separated calyx lobes. (Are you certain, Mike?) This knocks out group 2 and 3. Within group 2 is P. guava amongst others. Group 3 has as the most known one P. friedrichsthalianum in it.
So then group 1 splits further into 3 groups mainly looking at the leaf-shape:
Group 1: Leaves broadest at base, becoming narrower towards leaf tip
Group 2: Leaves broadest towards tip, leaf base narrower
Group 3: Leaves strongly hairy underneath (like a white coat)
Based on the picture I decide for group 1. It also mentions that the leaves can be hirsute.
Group 2 (one member P. cattleanum=Cherry guava) and group 3 (eg. P. grandiflorum) are out of race.
Group 1 represents the majority of species, distributed from Uruguay to Mexico, but mainly species from North Brasil. It lists as examples P. ciliatum, P. aquaticum, P.salutare as the most known ones and further P. aromaticum, P. moritzianum, P. argenteum and a few others.
(As it is a old book, I don't know if these names are still current, but this can be checked).
Maybe this gets us closer.
Psidium guinense looks fine based on the pics I see in the net, but I do not have info at the moment on the calyx of the flower bud in this species.
Time: 17th June 2011 6:10pm
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amanda says...
Is that the fruit Mike - or John Mc's pic? How readily can guava cross? It's certainly interesting looking - but all those seeds are a bummer?
Time: 17th June 2011 8:40pm
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Peter says...
The Psidiums cross with each other! One article talks about 13 successful crosses and another one mentions a hybrid between P. guinense and P. guava.
If the mystery guava is a hybrid, I am giving up to identify it...
Time: 17th June 2011 9:51pm
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fruitist says...
Agree with point one. But some Campomenesia have about 8 seeds per fruit. The seeds are so thin that they appear like part of the pulp.
Time: 17th June 2011 10:03pm
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Mike says...
The seeds are soft unlike cherry guavas and tropical ones.I ruled out guineense as there were numerous characters wrong.The fruit are 38-45mm,completely soft when ripe but a bit of a 'shell' and soft pulp a while before ripening.Flesh goes a deeper amber colour.There 5 clear separate calyx sepals that persist until fruit half grown.The fine peach fuzz is on fruit (look close at those on ground),new growth and under leaves it is more noticeable.Veins are prominant under the stiff leaves and leaves are wider toward the terminus than base.
It m ust be popular somewhere because of the notable qualities of the tree and fruit.
Time: 17th June 2011 10:42pm
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Peter says...
Ok, Mike would need to take a pic of a seed in detail. In his pic I also looked at the dried fruit with seeds on the top left corner. Even he says they are soft - to me they not thin enough for Campomanesia and even there are exemptions in amount of seeds - I don't know if Camp. has so many numerous seeds. I would like to have a look in the monograph vol. 45 Fl. Neotrop. from 1986, which deals with this genera, but I don't have it yet.
Have a look at a drawing of a Campemanesia seed:
http://www.archive.org/search.php?sort=-week&page=1&query=((contributor%3AEarth%20Sciences-University%20of%20Toronto%20AND%20format%3Apdf)%20AND%20-mediatype%3Acollection)%20AND%20(format%3Ajpeg%20OR%20format%3Ajpg%20OR%20format%3Agif%20OR%20format%3Apng)
Then go down the list to:
Die Nat
Time: 17th June 2011 10:42pm
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Mike says...
Amanda my pictures that John uploaded for me taken on Wednesday 5pm.
Time: 17th June 2011 10:43pm
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Peter says...
Ok. Mike, thanks for the extra info. Did not read it as I took a while to type mine.
I got too confused with the arrangement of the veins, but what you describe is what the other reference talks about Campomanesia valid for that particular region (NW South America).
Time: 17th June 2011 10:46pm
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Peter says...
Sorry, I did not read your description properly: So not the veins - the leaves are wider toward the terminus than the base? For me, what I see in the pic the leaves are widest in the lower part and narrow down toward the top?
Interesting with the fuzz on the fruit!
Time: 17th June 2011 10:58pm
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About the Author Peter36
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Mike says...
I had better propagate some cuttings and get them around so it is not the last one if it is obscure.Peter Salleras who is a commercial grower was impressed with it and didn't even get to try the fruit.His cuttings didn't take.On reflection it probably isn't a guava and the juvenile fruit look like small feijoas.
Time: 17th June 2011 11:00pm
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amanda says...
Sorry Mike - but it's not a guava I would be intersted in to be honest...there are much better options than that seedy thing...there isn't even any 'flesh' on it...?
Time: 18th June 2011 12:55am
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Mike says...
I think I know what it is now.It is an odd variety of P.guineense called arasahum.I webbed a picture and it sure looks like it.I looked at normal P.guineense and dismissed it because of differences in the fruit.
Time: 18th June 2011 1:00am
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amanda says...
It still looks like crap no matter it's name guys...any serious guava fan would likely agree.The 'face-off' sounds overly optimtistic maybe? eg: give me a good reason to grow this one...?
Time: 18th June 2011 3:16am
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amanda says...
It still looks like crap no matter it's name guys...any serious guava fan would likely agree.The 'face-off' sounds overly optimtistic maybe? eg: give me a good reason to grow this one...?
Time: 18th June 2011 3:17am
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Wayne says...
It looks like what is called locally a "wild fig" but that would not be it's true name. It is a big tree that the fruits are not for human consumption. You see it growing wild mostly along the banks of creeks
Time: 18th June 2011 3:38am
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Original Post was last edited: 18th June 2011 7:10amAbout the Author Wayne
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Mike says...
It has smaller comparatively softer seeds,not as hard or gritty as cherry or tropical guavas so is easier to eat especially for kids.The taste is also better and never any sourness.The tree is also way more productive and a more persistnt bearer.My yellow cherry is like the poor cousin compared it.I am a seasoned campaigner in the guava eating stakes and I find large or hard seeds a drawback in many.
The 2 counts I said you were wrong on were that I was smart or could successfully upload.
Time: 18th June 2011 7:01am
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Brendan says...
Looks exactly like the Wild Cherry guava that can be a pest here, the birds & animals spread them. I prefer to eat them half ripe Amanda, they have more flesh. Nice and sweet tho.
I remember eating them over 50 years ago, the bus driver taking us to school would stop the bus, we'd all bail out and pick heaps of them then pig out. Even the bus driver liked them.
Mum used to make guava jelly with them, that was an interesting colour.
I wouldn't plant one, they spread too easily. There's two types here also Mike.
Time: 18th June 2011 8:01am
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Mike says...
Really, as I kid I would tank up on the feral red cherry guavas on the tablelands and the prolific feral pink tropical guavas on the coast.Do you have the feral tropical guavas on the coast and cherries up at Eungella? It is hard to imagine they could be as invasive as the two common species as I can't get seeds to germinate and none come up from the kilos that fall.
Time: 18th June 2011 8:15am
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fruitist says...
Mike, do you have the pink fruit variety (see the picture in the thread "Guava tees in melbourne" on the right hand side under "Most Popular" growing in your place? If so, how thick is your pulp?
Time: 18th June 2011 10:33am
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Mike says...
The names of pink fleshed in Oz seem confused with hong kong pink,hawaiain pink and pear,chinese pink not clearly defined.My pink one is like a smaller,slightly oval HK pink, with more pulp and it is greener when ripe.The roadside feral pink with 'gravel' is not good quality but many cultivated pinks smell great but strong yet taste insipid and some are good.Thailand,Loas and India do have pinks and I'm not fussed on seefeeda or lucknow.Some of the huge white fleshed ones usually eaten crunchy are alright if left to ripen.One particular seedless smoothskin white in the bangkpok markets is a beauty.I would like to try rubies and the red indians from florida.
Time: 18th June 2011 10:57am
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Peter says...
I think the mystery is solved - at least pinning it down to something close to Psidium guineense. Maybe it is really P. guineense var. arasahum. The pictures available on the net look alike. I could not find info on seed fertility.
Maybe it is a sterile hybrid with another Psidium, so seeds are abortive and as a result smaller and softer.
If you want, you can cut through the seed and check, if the embryo looke viable...
Time: 18th June 2011 11:01am
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Mike says...
I chopped a few seeds and they are nearly all seed coat.The embryos are tiny if present at all.The standard guineense seems different and that is what threw me.
Maybe that variety is the standard guineense in Australia and BJ was correct in the first instance.
Time: 18th June 2011 11:15am
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fruitist says...
Normally Guisaro fruits do not get stung by fruit flies. It apprears that your fruits did as seen in the pictures.
Time: 18th June 2011 11:21am
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Mike says...
When softening yes but not as much as the two normal guavas.Those in the picture only have helopeltis and amblepelta stings not fruit fly.
Time: 18th June 2011 11:27am
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Brendan says...
Yeah, when those cherry guavas are ripe here, they can have a lot of 'boneless beef' (maggots) inside :-) That's why I eat them half ripe.
The two types here, one goes yellowish when ripe (or half ripe), and the other one with tougher/thicker skin, stays green when ripe.
Btw, they do take a long time to germinate :-(
Time: 19th June 2011 7:06am
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Original Post was last edited: 19th June 2011 7:09amAbout the Author Brendan
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Mike says...
Cherry guavas and tropical pink guavas are often just bags of live rice.These ones do go yellow also and I eat all of guavas half ripe.
Time: 19th June 2011 7:38am
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Mike says...
Fig parrots have decimated the guavas and I just chased a flock out of the tree.Yasi damaged native food trees for many species from Cairns to Townsville and garden fruit trees have had extra wildlife attention since.Guavas and sapodillas seem to be the fruit of choice for flying foxez and tube-nosed fruit bats.
Time: 19th June 2011 8:31am
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Mike says...
Just to finish the story according to the literature the brasilian guava P.guineense is the most widespread (Mexico to Argentina),variable and productive (to 28t/ha in Peru) of guavas and allies.It crosses with standard guavas to form highly productive dwarfs and is considered by many that some forms have a more 'agreeable' flavour than other guavas.
It was the variability that made it challenging to ID.
Time: 20th June 2011 4:46pm
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