New Garden (forum)

Karen & Paul starts with ...
Hi, we are planning a new garden at a bare block of land which we are building our new home on. We are building a small home so have lots of space remaining for our edible garden. We hope to plant a variety of fruit trees along with our vege and herb patches. Like most people we are on a budget and after a look around local nurseries this weekend we feel a little worried about how far our dollar will stretch for this dream. So our question is this - we realise it can take years for a tree to start producing fruit. The more mature the tree, the quicker it fruits? Or will a mature tree still take some years to get used to the new environment before it fruits? hehe how amature do we sound? Thanks in advance.
Karen and Paul
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Time: 19th July 2009 11:12am

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About the Author Karen Paul1
Pottsville NSW
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randey says...
wow, you guys seem to have the right ingredients for a bright gardening future. but it would help if you could tell people where you actually are, the annual rainfall, soil type, elevation etc, and most importantly all the types of plants and trees you want to grow eg arid,temperate, sub tropical, tropical. all these are basically determined by your actual locale. a good idea is to look around your area and check out what your neighbours are growing, always a good indicator. good luck

Time: 19th July 2009 11:47am

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About the Author randey
perth
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Karen & Paul says...
Oh ok, gee lets see. We are building in Pottsville Northern NSW on the coast just below Tweed Heads. So I gather it's 'Sub-Tropical' (although feels like temperate today brrrrrr.
Now I'm not sure the accuracy of this next bit I just tried researching it through Google and this was on a Real Estate page :-/ - Subtropical. Cool summer breezes and mild winters. Mean Daily Maximum Temperature ranges from 29.6

Time: 20th July 2009 10:14am

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About the Author Karen Paul1
Pottsville NSW
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Speedy says...
Hi Karen and Paul,
Just need a bit more detail....
how far are you from the beach and can you see it for the top of the block?
what direction does that slope face ie. exactly perpendicular to the contour.
(important just so I know which way the wind is going to hit your block and how much sun you're going to get)

All the trees you've mentioned will grow well for you there, though the apple will need to be a low-chill variety.
to get an idea of what will grow for you there , go over to Tropical Fruit World (10 or so min drive from you)and have a taste of a few things.
You might get a few ideas with some things you've not tasted before.
most thing that are growing there should grow for you and many available from Daleys at Kyogle (maybe 45min drive for you, and worth the trip).

Time: 20th July 2009 12:03pm

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About the Author Speedy
Swan Hill, Vic
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Karen & Paul says...
Great thanks Speedy - you know the area well for someone in Swan Hill :-) Any excuse to visit Tropical Fruit World sounds good to me. I love their exotic stuff but wonder if we'd really use it?? We have grown things in the past that either turn to seed by the time we pick em or fall and rot because we don't have enough use for them. This time we want to be realistic and grow stuff we use regularly and which can be shared and useful to others. But yes will make the trip to have a taste indulgence :-)
Definately want to visit Daleys but only after I have all the answers I am seeking, as it is a bit of a hike and I will want to make some purchases I'm sure.
So the slope that you can see in the photo is facing south :-( and it drops down a little to the West (Left of the photo). We are building the house closer to the top right(E) so suspect the front Right (S/E corner) will be our shade zone from about 11am onward with maybe a little afternoon sun?? The Left side(W) should have good sun from about 10-11am all day (until someone builds next door and then who knows? - Another reason we are hoping to establish the garden pretty quickly to get things settled in).
We can't see the ocean from the top of the block as two hills stand between us. It's about 2km as the crow flies. Having said that from the next block up behind us you can see Byron in the distance to the South.
Thanks for your ideas - looks like a delicious weekend ahead :-)
My initial question again just in case we've gone off track - will an expensive mature tree fruit sooner than a small tree or can it take the same amount of time to settle in and start fruiting?
I'm loving this website - thankyou

Time: 20th July 2009 1:49pm

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About the Author Karen Paul1
Pottsville NSW
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peter says...
an older tree would have to fruit sooner than say a bare rooted tree
or a younger tree in a pot.

figs and mulberries are easy to grow
and will friut in the first year.

daleys have a good selection of both.

Time: 20th July 2009 2:51pm

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Karen & Paul says...
Thanx Peter, I like the idea of the dwarf mulberry :-) we had an enormous one growing up as kids, I recall a 5th or 6th birthday party where every kid went home with clothes stained in mulberry juice hehe... YUM
I heard somewhere that our shire have classed them as a noxious weed though so I'll have to investigate - hope not...

Time: 20th July 2009 3:07pm

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About the Author Karen Paul1
Pottsville NSW
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Speedy says...
If it were me, I wouldn't bother with 'advanced trees', price is usually exponential to size increase with not much advantage.
Establishment time is much greater for larger trees.
Often 'advanced trees ' are the runts that didnt get sold last year for some reason and were potted -sometimes rootbound or with poor root developement.
I've often seen small trees outgrow larger potted trees of same species planted at same time.
These are generalisations, but if you dont know what to 'look out for' re these sort of problems then best go with the standard,sizes or fruit trees on offer ie 5 litre bags and 6" (150mm) 8" (200mm) pots.
Also more trees in the ground for your dollars

White shahtoot wont stain and is sweet.
Red dwarf shah toot, I've not seen it go feral like the common mulberry.

Time: 20th July 2009 3:48pm

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About the Author Speedy
Swan Hill, Vic
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Karen & Paul says...
Awesome, thanks for that great advice Speedy :-) Being novices we are weary about being taken for a ride and wasting our money. We'll sound like old hands by the time we're through with you lot :-) How lucky we stumbled here...

Time: 21st July 2009 1:39pm

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About the Author Karen Paul1
Pottsville NSW
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amanda says...
Hi Karen and Paul... not to b negative - but that's a tricky site u have there? I am envious of your rainfall!.. I do wonder what your drainage is like tho'? R u likely to get a lot of run-off?

Earthworks for drainage etc can b expensive - forewarned is forearmed - I would (firstly) have a chat with your shire, developer, builder etc - anyone who can give u free advice is good when u are on a budget.

Also - either plant the smaller plants on the northern boundary or deciduous fruit trees - anything else will block out most of your sun.

While u are waiting to build - visit your block often and watch the way the sun, wind etc works on your property throughout the seasons if possible.

I agree with Speedy - advanced trees are not worth it in the long run..I use heaps of tubestock plants (for natives) that way if they die it's only cost me a cupla bucks and I don't feel so bad!

Personally I would b looking at dwarfing fruit trees for the north - and sourcing them where possible. The south may b better for bigger trees that don't mind wet feet?

Time: 21st July 2009 8:36pm

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About the Author amanda19
Geraldton. WA
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Karen & Paul says...
Thanks Amanda, yes it has been a challenging site in many ways but we are determined to make it work for us.
We have been looking more and more at dwarf trees thinking these might be the answer to our shade concerns. Thanks for that advice.
What about a mass planting of natives down the bottom of the slope(S) to soak up the run off and provide some privacy? Can they generally handle a soaking or if there's plenty of them will it even remain boggy? Otherwise could anyone suggest what to plant in this zone (S) at the bottom of the slope which is quite boggy? A pond with fish?

Time: 22nd July 2009 11:51am

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About the Author Karen Paul1
Pottsville NSW
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amanda says...
Hi Karen & Paul - this is out of my league :( I thought u may need to incorporate some kind of terracing/retaining walls first? Anyone else know about this?

Time: 22nd July 2009 3:17pm

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About the Author amanda19
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Karen & Paul says...
Thanx Amanda, yes we are getting some rock wall plans drawn up to level the top section as we speak. we thought of terracing down the west side gently with our vege beds and then that just leaves the bottom boggy section to sort out.
We received our catalogue from Daleys yesterday and it's fantastic. We've both read it's excellent articles packed full of advice and working our way through the trees now to find suitable ones for our site. We were a bit taken back with the advice to get wind breaks in place first and soil prep for at least 6 months..... Guess all good things take time :-)

Time: 24th July 2009 7:12am

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About the Author Karen Paul1
Pottsville NSW
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Ellen says...
Karen & Paul

I was in the same predicament as you a year back .

What I did was selected all my choise of fruit trees that I wanted ( doing a bit of research on their full grown height, etc.

Once I have decided on my choice of selections, I got 98 % of all my fruit trees from Daleys, I bought most of them Dwarf or seedlings, and I planted them all in pots during the construction taking place on our land.

By the time the hand over taken place, most of my seedlings fruit trees are well grown & ready for landscaping work on our land .



Time: 24th July 2009 7:49am

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About the Author Ellen
Smithfield
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amanda says...
Hi Ellen...yes it can work can't it? We had a shonky builder 1 yr over contract so I had to constantly "pot-up" 10 native trees that I had collected the year B4..by the time I could plant them they were in tree sacks that needed 2 of us to lift.

They have done well and are by far my biggest trees. I guess it's all in the care that is taken to progress them.

I have a really reputable grower n supplier of advanced trees nearby, but like speedy said u don't get a lot of bang for your buck. However maybe one good advanced shade tree is money well spent.. a bare garden takes a bit of getting used to! :)

Time: 24th July 2009 7:39pm

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About the Author amanda19
Geraldton. WA
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Ellen says...
Amanda,



Time: 25th July 2009 6:32am

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About the Author Ellen
Smithfield
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amanda says...
Hi Karen & Paul - that sounds like a great plan! You will end up with a really interesting garden..my block completely, boringly flat and it's just as challenging to make it look "interesting" ! I don't know about the shady, boggy south end (I am semi-arid)... many natives won't do well except "swampy" types like some melaleucas. Most may be recalcitrant to flower and end up straggly?
But it could be a lovely spot for something a bit 'different'.

Someone else here may know?

Time: 25th July 2009 9:48am

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About the Author amanda19
Geraldton. WA
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Karen & Paul says...
Thanx ladies.... yes we're starting to think outside the square Amanda... perhaps a drain and a shed hehehe

Time: 25th July 2009 10:11am

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About the Author Karen Paul1
Pottsville NSW
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Karen & Paul says...
Hi all, after having a read of the windbreak discussion we have just done a bit of casuarina research. We're thinking a row of these down the bottom in our wet patch to start our windbreak and attract some feathered friends. There is a sewer drain near here, any experiences of them being a menace? Any opinions?
Excited by Ellen and Amanda's suggestions of getting started now with seedlings, tubestock and dwarfs in pots. YAY we can do something productive then instead of sitting around waiting for the house to complete. Can't wait to go shopping now.... look out Daleys :-)

Time: 25th July 2009 5:25pm

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About the Author Karen Paul1
Pottsville NSW
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amanda says...
Hi Karen n Paul..There is a great book that your library should either have/b able to source 4 u called

"Successfully Growing Australian Native Plants and Colour Your Garden with Australian Natives"
Compendium Edition
By Geoff and Bev Rigby

It's good n has the info about choices around sewers, boggy spots etc.

You may prefer a bee attacting species - they are your best buddies in the garden (n they don't eat your fruit!)

Have fun! :)

Time: 25th July 2009 9:14pm

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About the Author amanda19
Geraldton. WA
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HappyEarth says...
Hi Karen and Paul,

Not sure if anyone else mentioned this but Id strongly recommend doing a permaculture design certificate (takes 10 days) and visiting loads of permaculture places before doing anything. At our place we spent 3-4 months just working out the design. With someone inexperienced I would take a year and see how the land changes with the seasons and gather as much info as possible. Where does the sun rise and set in winter? in summer? prevailing breezes? How does water run down your block? What trees grow well in your area? What are there requrirements? HOw can utilise this trees to assist with the cooling and heating of your house, what do you do with your homes greywater? etc etc etc

Mistakes in your landscape are expensive and hard to change down the track.

Good luck!

Rich
www.happyearth.com.au



Time: 26th July 2009 7:49am

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About the Author HappyEarth
Wollongong
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amanda says...
PS Karen n Paul...i found it inspiring to see the B4 n after photos of other bare gardens ...I'd like 2 share mine...the first is Mar08 n second pic is Mar09.. :) (BTW: the poinciana was grown up in a tree sack for 2 yrs b4 I could plant it..)
Pictures - Click to enlarge

Picture: 1
Picture: 2

Time: 26th July 2009 7:15pm

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About the Author amanda19
Geraldton. WA
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Jimmy says...
Love that Gero wind, hence the windbreaks.

Time: 27th July 2009 1:23pm

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amanda says...
Yea...that stuff is shade cloth and it even got ripped to bits! I use a commercial one now, called Rip Stop ..it's damn good stuff! Knitted instead of woven - so if u get a hole it doesn't go anywhere..I can highly recommend it for extreme weather.. :)

The round cardboard things are my tree guards - in this pic they are actually part of holding down the soil!... ah well... too many people would move here if it was perfect!! ;)

Time: 27th July 2009 6:14pm

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About the Author amanda19
Geraldton. WA
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Jimmy says...
Some of your plants eg macadamia have a grenough style lean to them !

Time: 28th July 2009 12:33pm

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amanda says...
Hay Jimmy - u know wot' it's all about! Here is a North side vs South side of one of my trees...!

The other looks just fine to me - after a few red's!! :)
Pictures - Click to enlarge

Picture: 1
Picture: 2
Picture: 3

Time: 29th July 2009 6:07pm

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About the Author amanda19
Geraldton. WA
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Karen & Paul says...
Hi All, Thanks Rich for your great advice. Paul actually did take a Permaculture course at The Channon a few months back. It was just a weekend food gardening course and he said they mainly discussed composts. Which was great but there is soooooo much more. He is keen to go back and do the design course - just finding the time!
Thanks Amanda for the book advice I will have a search for it. Loved the Bee idea. Paul is allergic to bites and I thought he would say NO WAY, but he was open to them living with us so that's great :-) And yes I will continue to be inspired by before and after photos and will hopefully remember to take lots of pics of our development. I actually spent some time in Geraldton back in 2000 when I did the WA thing for a few years... sorry - too dry for me, I had to get back to the humid, wet tropics before I went batty... Your place to great though and truly remarkable for I distinctly recall digging piles of potting mix into my dry patch only to watch it turn to sand within weeks, all the while thinking "NOTHING COULD GROW HERE!!" (that was in Scarborough, Perth). Well Done :-)

Time: 31st July 2009 4:44pm

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About the Author Karen Paul1
Pottsville NSW
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Julie says...
Karen...'there is so much more'. Too right there is! I get frustrated when people run a course on Permaculture and focus on organic growing. It is only a very small part of Permaculture, which is actually about good design.

If Paul does the course he will see that. I hope he has a good teacher, as there are some iffy ones around.

Hey, things do grow here! It's just hard work for the first couple of years. You know what they say about gardening in sand: 'less backbreak but more heartbreak'!

Time: 31st July 2009 8:17pm

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