"partially organic" ? (forum)

dan starts with ...
could someone please define this?
i've just noticed the "partially organic" tag in some areas of the site when buying fruit trees.

i'm unsure what this encompasses exactly. does this refer to its genetics?

thankyou.

Daniel.

Time: 10th February 2014 1:47pm

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sternus1 says...
Saying something is partially organic is like saying that something is somewhat unique. It is tautological.

Time: 10th February 2014 2:57pm

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BJ says...
Are you referring to the 'My Edibles' pages, where this is an option? It seems to mean, 'I'm organic, until the nut grass shads me and I pull out the Roundup'.

Time: 10th February 2014 4:11pm

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sternus1 says...
I use osmocote with organics fertilizer, so I guess my patch is partially organic too.

Time: 10th February 2014 4:29pm

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dan says...
Agreed Sternus1. It's self-defeating.
Either it is - or - it isn't.

BJ, No. When I first came across the expression, I was looking at Pumello trees (citrus)

Time: 10th February 2014 7:23pm

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Mike Tr says...
When a real word in science is revamped with a new meaning for marketing or lifestyle purposes and different people decide the rules about it, it is self defeating. So some inorganic brews are acceptable and some organic additives are not in the organic food production business. If only it were outcome focussed with extensive testing to prove there are minimal harmful chemical and no GM. The word vegetarian is one that has also changed from it's original roots in biology. Can a vegetarian animal eat fish, eggs or chicken?

Time: 10th February 2014 8:20pm

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fruitlovermyles says...
basically it means people have some organic products or methods with there trees but mostly used conventional agriculture methods i'e spraying chemicals.to me partially organic is a bit of a oxymoron.

Time: 10th February 2014 8:28pm

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sternus1 says...
My two cents on the vegetarian thing Mike:

When I was vegetarian, I'd eat eggs, but not the flesh of any animal, including chicken or fish. My reasoning for this is that an egg is essentially the period of a chicken, not a particularly appetizing way of thinking about it, but I couldn't see the logic in not eating them.

My GF is vegan and eats eggs. She will not eat dairy, or drink most wines, which are filtered with fish scales in many cases. Curiously however she will eat honey....

s

Time: 10th February 2014 8:35pm

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Boris Spasky says...
The citrus grown in potting media have slow release prills added, which are likely a chemical based fertiliser. But the mix itself probably contains lots of organic matter. As you know good drainage in a pot means a lot of leaching of nutrients so slow release prills are the way to go.

Edit: most soil wetting agents are also synthetic.

Time: 10th February 2014 8:38pm

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Mike Tr says...
There are organic chemicals that are nasty if you recall your organic and inorganic chemistry. It won't be the genetics that is being referred to above but maybe like BJ's concept, with a little glyphosate help. I can't see how being partially organic as opposed to totally organic as it applies to small fruit trees for the garden means anything.

Time: 10th February 2014 8:47pm

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fruitlovermyles says...
doesn't sound like vegan to me LOL! i am vegan and don't eat any animal products at all.which is what the original word vegan points to.i don't know where the eggs and honey started coming in the same place vegaterians eating fish and chicken came in LOL!

Time: 10th February 2014 10:36pm

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Mike Tr says...
My point is that omnivores or herbivores/vegetarians in the animal world don't match up to human diet names where vegetarianism is subjective. The term vegan may have been around for a few decades and has a specific meaning, the human equivalent of herbivore/vegetarian. I have known vegetarians who drink milk and eat eggs. With chemistry organic materials have a clear definition. It is a different meaning than in agriculture which is more subjective and recent.

Time: 10th February 2014 11:11pm

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dan says...
fruitlovermyles,

you're referring to Bio-Dynamic agriculture?

again, i disagree with the legalities of using "partial" in the expression.
i dont know of any human, biological being, who's part robot aswell.
so it's either organic or it isn't true since it's essence or nature is impeded.

it's all marketing gymic.

perhaps im best off calling Daley's themselves?

Time: 11th February 2014 9:19am

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sternus1 says...
Fruitlovermyles,

There is no salient reason for omitting eggs from a vegan diet. Chickens will, as part of their natural organic process, produce eggs with or without the presence of a rooster. You might take issue with the method of production of eggs (battery farming) which is quite cruel, but there is no suffering involved anywhere at any stage when harvesting eggs from a private coop. If you didn't eat the eggs, they'd sit on the ground and go rotten.

True veganism is ultimately impossible. Will you stop using toothpaste, which contains zooplankton? How about never getting in anything that involves an internal combustion engine, because these run on oil, which is the fossilized remains of dead plants and animals? You'd better not take antibiotics while you're at it, too--we wouldn't want anybody killing those poor little single celled organisms, after all. Don't take a shower, or use any kind body wash, because you're killing millions of microscopic skin mites every time you do.

so long as you continue to actively participate in,in, and profit from, the conditions and procedures of a system that is directly hostile to, counter-intuitive to, and completely against the principles of the ideology to which you subscribe, you will remain the definition of hypocrisy.

The problem I have with Veganism is that it is ethically selective. If you get into the syllogisms of it, it is ultimately about suffering and cruelty. Peter singer is the big name in respect to this, academically. I do feel he has a lot of valid points. But there are a great number of logical contradictions involved, particularly in with respect to arguments based on sentience. What tends to happen is that vegan theory descends into a place where you begin to make value judgements about the right to life of different species. For example, why is it better to kill a spray down a cockroach with insecticide than it is to kill a sheep, or a fish or bird, for food? Is an insecticide death worse than a compressed bolt through the head? Probably.

Now, a lot of people here will say that a sheep has a more complex brain than a mosquito, and has a greater cognitive capacity to experience pain and suffering. I suspect this is probably true--Mosquitoes don't have a cerebral cortex, but it might not be. The consciousness of insects is totally unknown to science beyond a spattering of sensory information. Is it better to kill a mackerel, or a whale? You could argue that whales are a mammal, and that they are more sentient than fish, which I also suspect is true. You might say that whales are rarer than Mackerel, might look at it pragmatically. But if you do, we've now moved on to the issue of scarcity, and by this rationale a critical endangered fish has more value than a whale. We've now entered the arena of rationalisation, where anything can be the right answer depending on circumstantial variables.

The danger with rhetoric centered around salience as the benchmark for species value is that if it is, when you think about, very, very awful.

Imagine if we applied this to human beings. In that situation, we'd be sending catatonics,the mentally ill, the terminally disabled and ill away in cattle trains to be euthanized. Welcome to eugenics.

Not that we aren't all eugenicists to various degrees anyway. Look at a pug dog and consider if this is really an example of ethical breeding.

Moreover, not eating meat or animal products only has a very limited ecological value. Yes, you are saving energy as feeds and lands do do not need to be acquired to produce food. Well, kind of; you'd still need land, water, energy, fertiliser to produce vegan foods. But what of that? Every time you use anything made of plastic, drive a car, use an aerosol, eat from a can, buy a pair of shoes, drink a coffee, use a cleaning product, put on a piece of jewellery, or pretty much buy or engage with any modern thing whatsoever, you are directly contributing to the deaths of thousands of human and non-human animals alike. And you do it every day, and so do I.

The reason is simple; ego. We all have one. It is more important to mankind to socially accepted and hierarchically dominant than it is to be completely ethical and environmentally benign. This is built into human DNA, into our psyche. In truth, the man with a ferrari and a mcmansion and massive disposable income is no different than the bowerbird with its nest of accumulated blue things; the objective does not change despite the difference in sophistication between the processes. And what is that objective? To be on top, and to attract a mate. Male or female, gay or straight, it doesn't matter. True ethical behavior will not occur until human beings evolve beyond the point of vizarded base evolutionary drives

This is compounded by consumerism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtvHNfomZL8


When I buy a coffee in the morning, I know that I could have sent that money to a child in sub-saharan Africa, and that the money I spend on morning coffee in a given week, is the difference between life and death for a six year old child dying of AIDS in Sudan. Like everybody else, I try not to think about it.

But what I don't do is say that anybody is better or worse than anybody else in the great machine in which we all find ourselves.

When I buy a truckload of mulch, I know that this probably comes from forestry cleared for housing development. How many animals were either displaced or exterminated as a result? Again, I try not to think about it. You could say the same thing about potting mix or compost. The once beautiful island of Nauru is now a decimated shit hole owing to the fact its substrate was stripped and sold as fertiliser and compost which was used by people in Western countries to pot up orange trees. The people who potted up the orange trees probably considered themselves green.

The reality is, human beings are innately selfish, and favor themselves and their own interests over those of other humans and non-humans. Every single human being you ever meet will behave unethically, knowing their actions to be unethical, knowing that these unethical behaviors do not align with the ideologies they project, as an aspect of the self, outward to the social universe. Man builds multi million dollar churces whilst children in Indonesia fish, bare handed, for highly poisonous tarantulas in grassy hollows purely so they do not starve to death. And then, from a position of safety and luxury, decry the horror caused by inequality, espouse the merits of the meek and charitable, the humble, the generous.

Please google some images of the Vatican, for example, and decide whether or not that looks like a place Jesus would approve of.

But are vegans any better? In what way? The very of existence of Vegans and non Vegans are essentially the same in terms of ecological destruction. Behaviors of both only support the system which results in animal cruelty, loss of habitat and the thinning of biodiversity, but sustains it. Right now I'm typing this message on a device which contains finite metals which are are as environmentally disastrous to extract as anything possibly could be. It is mostly made of oil. Due to the principle of planned obsolescence, I'll probably have to throw it away in a couple of years, and buy another one. And this is what everybody will do, because if you bought something and it lasted forever, what then would happen to a system that works by people making things all the time and people buying things all the time?

If anyone can refute this, I'm yet to hear it:
http://www.marxist.com/marx-marxist-labour-theory-value2.htm


Politicians invent reasons to go to war for oil, other humans rally against it, and then drive cars which run on the oil of taken by force from conquered nations.

It is all farce, it is a three ring circus.

And I suppose that is what separates man from the kingdom of animals; man is the only species that willfully commits atrocities, inflicts great cruelties and hardships on his fellow species and every other, KNOWING them to be those things.

So no, veganism doesn't equate to ecological neutrality, and neither does it equate to ethical neutrality, Rather, it is a dramaturgical exercise in identity. I wonder how many vegans will be left when it goes out of vogue.



Time: 11th February 2014 11:21am

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Mike Tr says...
Isn't being a vegan just a diet decision without a moral dimension? While I may not think it is a healthful option others strongly disagree and choose a diet for health reasons.There are a whole lot of dilemmas if animal welfare,liberation,conservation,energetics or animal exploitation are part of a diet decision.Are bees or sheep being exploited when we take honey or wool from them?

Time: 11th February 2014 12:02pm

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BJ says...
I'm a level five vegan - I wont eat anything that casts a shadow...

Time: 11th February 2014 12:13pm

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sternus1 says...
Mike, what you've identified about animal exploitation is actually the central point in a massive and currently very popular academic movement which is type of Marxism for animals. I've seen papers that go as far as to equate factory farming with Auschwitz and the final solution, which I frankly think is at least is drawing a long bow and is probably bananas. I haven't considered it very deeply, and don't intend to, TBH.I suppose if you really got into the philosophy of it, then yes--both those things do qualify as labor exploitation under the Marxist paradigm (...is the 50,000 time I've led myself into using that term, officially).

I very much doubt people get into Being vegan for health reasons. I was told by a med student that pescatarian diets are the healthiest, but the caveat is the fish has to mostly come from the fresh.

I suspect that people most go into veganism for ideological reasons, and because, well, it is hard to be a proper hipster unless you are one. Certainly I've never met a vegan who is vegan purely for health reasons. One vegan once told me that she was 'vegan because it awesome!'/ facepalm.

I also don't agree that the vegan diet it is healthy, mostly because as a vegan you're pretty much totally living on carbs. Anybody who has every trained will tell you that this isn't a good idea unless you're doing serious cardio a lot of the time. The amount of quinoa you need to get a decent protein hit is ridiculous, and the reality is you'd have to be taking a protein isolate, probably pea based, to get enough. It might look good on paper (somewhat) but what people actually do is another matter. I've seen plenty of lean vegans, but I would only call a handful of them healthy. When I was vegetarian most of the time I'd wind up eating potato gems and noodles 4 nights a week, I never had the time to do everything right. Vegan is much harder again, especially for females. Very high risk of osteoporosis and X syndrome down the track, is my guess.

Time: 11th February 2014 12:55pm

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yrt says...
Anybody have any recipes for vegetarians - I heard that the most ethical way to eat is to eat vegetarians.

Time: 11th February 2014 1:09pm

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fruitlovermyles says...
hi sternus1 i was just making a observation that the vegan diet is not the strict diet it once was anymore.not attacking anyone if that is how you felt i am sorry you feel like that.

i have got in to many debates and they never get anywhere i am not about to start another one.

fruitlovermyles

Time: 11th February 2014 5:40pm

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sternus1 says...
Don't mind me, myles. I'll take pretty much any chance to get into a debate, unfortunately, and didn't feel attacked by your post.

s

Time: 11th February 2014 5:42pm

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fruitlovermyles says...
:)

Time: 11th February 2014 6:44pm

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fruitlovermyles says...
hi dan i basically mean the methods that are certified for organic growers and biodynamic growers.

which even a home grower can do now these days with nurseries stocking more true certified organic products not say its organic and has no organic symbol on it.

although i do understand that if you have fruit trees all by themselves in a patch of grass and needing to spray them vs permaculture approach having support species ie chooks free ranging,ground covers,nitrogen fixing trees,chop and drop plants and trees,compost tea brewing,mineral accumulators and giving trees and plants rock minerals so they can take all they need instead of only having npk which you can grow those minerals at home by growing comfrey and lucerne and fermenting them in water for a few weeks. sure there maybe pest problems but the genral idea is it won't have as of a big impact and well designed biodiversity is key.people genrally peopele don't need to buy fertilizers really they can grow them at home most of the time and you can use cover crops in vege beds i bought a mix from eden seeds and i haven't had to barely feed any of the veges and they have gone nuts :) and weeds you either get chooks to eat buy them by free ranging or a chook tractor.

so for me partilly organic is like a extreme example would be using certfied organic manure then spraying your crops with agent orange.

Time: 11th February 2014 10:10pm

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Mike Tr says...
I have free range ducks and geese and mulch heavily and do composting in my yard.Natural fertilizers,rock flour and even dolomite get spread.I cannot overcome a few limitations in my highly weathered metamorphic soil and the returned mulch from plants grown on the soil also have the same micronutrient deficiencies.
I don't know if any natural solutions can deal with pests like helopeltis bugs,fruit spotting bugs or even qflies.Since I stopped using pesticides many trees have gone downhill or are unproductive even with a sound fertilizer regime.

Time: 11th February 2014 10:47pm

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fruitlovermyles says...
i am only starting mike so i only know so much.

but i know brewed compost tea is used and sprayed alot on trees and plants when the sun is not out as it gives a waxy flim and protects from bugs

and can have added organic fertilizers in with it so the leaves take in the nutrient to the tree or plant.

brewed worm tea also is good and worm castings contain cytinaze not sure how it spelled but it natures pest replent.

i remember a permculture teacher on my online class said that is the tropics because rains so much its hard to keep any nutrients in the soil.

if i were you have i would find a local permculture club or group

and they could probly help alot.

if that is the case and nutrients are just washing down to where the trees can't reach them then something like comfrey planted around fruit trees would help alot as it mines nutrients and store it in there leaves and brings nutrients from subsoil to the top its tap root goes down 8 to 10 feet when mature where fruit tree can't get to. i suggest crown cutting if you can get them they mature much fast and also it is a stockfeed here is some info on it:

Comfrey Power
Improve your soil, prevent disease, mulch your plants, and enhance your compost with this powerhouse of a plant.

By Jean Nick

I have my own little organic fertilizer factory, cranking out free mulch, compost activator, and a potent plant food.

The fuel for this factory is Russian comfrey (Symphytum X uplandicum). It has 6-foot-long roots that harvest nutrients from deep in the soil, making comfrey leaves a fantastic natural source of nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium.

Comfrey.
Is a fast growing perennial herb cousin to borage, grows to about 2 feet tall with hairy broad leaves with pretty little white bell flowers, its extremely hardy.
Protein has been found to be from 22-36%, Vitamin A 28,000 IU per 100 grams of leaf, great for fattening worms and a good source of Vitamins B1, B2, B3, B5, B6, B12, C and E itsa healthy chickens paradise
Conditions.
loves full sun thrives in shade extremely hardy out does and chokes weeds its drought tolerant and will grow in anything anywhere produce soft rich friable fertile soil, which it actually prefers
planting
water the ground plant watch it grow
Uses
Has many medicinal uses, but no garden should be without it
. Its a balanced NPK fertilizer
. Its a compost activator
. Its a dynamic accumulator plant.
. It has a low carbon nitrogen ratio.
. Its a green manure and mulch.
. Its a good fodder.
. Its a good source of food for earthworms.
. Its a potting mix.
Just shred crush and mix with leaf-mold loamy sand and or dolomite to produce an ideally nutricious balanced soil for pot plants, Grow it near your chicken coop, lots of shell hardening yoke enriching chicken delicious ingredients
it contains high levels of all the essential nutrients for plant growth: Nitrogen, Phosphorus and Potassium (NPK) together with many other trace elements. Comfrey out-performs manure, compost and many liquid feeds for concentration of nutrients. It produces these from a deep root system extending deep down inside the subsoil bringing to the surface an array of nutritional ingredients that most edible plants can't access. It also has an ideal Carbon:Nitrogen ratio which means that it does not hamper absorption of nitrogen by plant when dug in and its safe to mulch round the trunks A WORMS BANQUET
Comfrey really is nature

Time: 11th February 2014 11:39pm

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fruitlovermyles says...
mulching is great good to here you do it but a the same you could be growing your own mulch.

as seen in the video below and a tropical nitrogen fixing ground cover would be really good also perhaps pintos penut or wyn cassia. which you can get online.

there is a stage in food forest where for a number of years you would be focusing on building soil this video explains what happens for a while http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77rat8Rgi2s basiclly

in a food forest if don't have all the parts together over time you may not be creating a eco system which in a food forest is the end goal a example: having a habbitat for a wide vareity of bugs so there is a food chain one bug eats another and so on.so if there is a missing part in the system then the whole system could collapse and not work aswell as it could with minimal effort on your part if you have to put alot of effort there needs to be some tweaking.

Time: 11th February 2014 11:55pm

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fruitlovermyles says...
so basically its all about having backup systems in the eco system of a food forest when something else fails something else kicks in on its own but it does need attetion and care to detail in the design.

Time: 12th February 2014 12:04am

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dan says...
thanks for the help fruitlovermyles.

Time: 13th February 2014 10:46am

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